Just shut up and listen.

In Unhinged, Dalrock writes about an incident highlighted in Tim and Kathy Keller’s book The Meaning of Marriage:

“In the section titled The Godly Tantrum, Tim explains that Kathy wanted Tim to work fewer hours, but he was focused on the goals of his ministry.  Tim offers this story as encouragement to readers “not to shrink from really telling the truth to one another.”

One day I came home from work.  It was a nice day outside and I noticed that the door to our apartment’s balcony was open.  Just as I was taking off my jacket I heard a smashing noise coming from the balcony.  In another couple of seconds I heard another one.  I walked out on to the balcony and to my surprise saw Kathy sitting on the floor.  She had a hammer, and next to her was a stack of our wedding china.  On the ground were the shards of two smashed saucers.

“What are you doing?  I asked.”

She looked up and said, “You aren’t listening to me.  You don’t realize that if you keep working these hours you are going to destroy this family.  I don’t know how to get through to you.  You aren’t seeing how serious this is.  This is what you are doing.”  And she brought the hammer down on the third saucer.  It splintered into pieces.

Tim explains that this was the wakeup call that he needed to decide to work fewer hours.”

In She Only Acted Crazy To Get Her Own Way, Dalrock continues discussing this incident (highlighting in the first paragraph is mine):

“There is another point worth bringing up in this episode, and that is the meaning of the complementarian expression “listen to your wife”.  This is another case where the complementarian expression means something quite different than what the words would suggest on their face.  Just like “servant leader” doesn’t mean headship, and “submission” means rebellion, “listen to your wife” doesn’t mean simply listen to her.   When spoken by a complementarian, “listen to your wife” means do as she says (emphasis mine):

I sat down trembling. I thought she had snapped. “I’m listening. I’m listening,” I said. As we talked it became clear that she was intense and laser focused, but she was not in a rage or out of control emotionally.  She spoke calmly but forcefully.  Her arguments were the same as they had been for months, but I realized how deluded I had been.  There would never be a convenient time to cut back.  I was addicted to the level of productivity I had achieved.  I had to do something.  She saw me listening for the first time and we hugged.

Note that they had been discussing this for months.  He had heard her arguments but didn’t agree with her on the correct decision.  This is what complementarians call “not listening”.  “Listening” means agreeing with her.”

 

Is it true that what complementarians mean by “listening to your wife” is agreeing with your wife and doing what she says?  This is actually a very serious accusation, and therefore all of us who take biblical marriage seriously should be concerned about this charge because if it is true, what complementarians are teaching is directly counter to what the Bible says about the marital hierarchy of headship and submission:

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (Ephesians 5:22-24)

The Bible says the husband is to be the head of the wife.  He should listen to her and then make a decision about what course of action is best to pursue.  However, if what complementarians mean by “listening” is agreeing with your wife and doing what she says, then this is teaching that the wife is to be the head of the husband, a direct inversion of what is taught in the Bible.

Is Dalrock’s charge true?  After all, it is seemingly based only on Pastor Tim Keller’s story.

A couple years ago, my husband and I participated in a couple’s Bible study, The Art of Marriage, at our church.  The featured pastors for this series are like a Who’s Who of the complementarian evangelical world−Voddie Baucham, Bryan L. Carter, Michael Easley, Dr. Wayne Grudem (President of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood), Dave Harvey, Mary Kassian, Albert Mohler, Russell D. Moore, Dennis and Barbara Rainey, Paul Tripp, Dave and Ann Wilson, and others.  The Art of Marriage is essentially evangelical complementarianism in its pure, distilled form and thus can serve to either prove or refute Dalrock’s charge.

During one of the video teaching segments, Pastor Dave Wilson and his wife Ann discussed a difficult time in their marriage.  He was growing a new church while also serving as team chaplain for the Detroit Lions, and he was very busy and away from home more than his wife wanted him to be.

She had tried discussing her unhappiness with him, she said, but he was not cutting back enough in her estimation.  On their tenth wedding anniversary, he planned a nice date and took her out to dinner.  He arranged for individual roses to be delivered periodically to their table while he lovingly reminisced about each year of their marriage.  She grew increasingly angry with him, and later when they left and went to park at the site where their new church would be built, he leaned over to kiss her and she turned away.

When he asked her what was wrong, she told him that she had lost her feelings for him (i.e. no longer loved him) because he was gone too much for work.  He was devastated and started to disagree with her, reaching for his calendar to show her all the times he’d been home when, he says, he suddenly felt the Holy Spirit telling him,

Don’t say a word. Listen.  Just shut up and listen.

So he listened to her and then prayed and repented and asked God to help him be a better father and husband who was home more, as his wife wanted him to be.  He said their marriage improved after that.

You can watch the video segments here:

At the time we viewed this, it really bothered me.  Although I can’t fault her for missing her husband and wanting more of his time and attention, it seemed to me that Mrs. Wilson had behaved very ungraciously on their anniversary evening out.  Surely, I thought, she could have continued to discuss her feelings with him in a more respectful way and then committed to praying about the situation while abiding by his decision, whatever it was.  After all, he was very busy with work, not only building a ministry he was (presumably) called by God to start, but also providing for his family.  And many women in the world have to take care of matters at home on their own more than they would like because their husbands are gone long hours for work – just ask a military wife about deployment.  Or ask my sister, whose husband’s work schedule since leaving the army is six weeks on an oil rig in the ocean and then one week home, followed by six weeks away again, maybe in the oil fields in Wyoming this time.

Viewed from that lens, Mrs. Wilson’s story begins to look a bit self-centered, frankly.

But even if he was truly in error in how he was dividing his time, it seemed to me that it would have been best to speak with him respectfully about it and then pray often, asking God to handle the situation.  Delivering an I no longer love you because you are gone for work too much type of speech on their tenth anniversary doesn’t really square with what the Bible says in Ephesians 5.  As we sat in church that evening in 2014 watching this video, I felt a strong sense of unease about what we wives were being taught.

Looking at their story now, two years later, it clearly seems to support Dalrock’s charge.  The Wilsons’ story is eerily similar to the Kellers’ except that Mrs. Wilson doesn’t violently smash anything.  But there is still a veiled threat implicit in telling your husband that you no longer love him on your tenth anniversary date night.  Pastor Wilson even talks about getting the sense that he was supposed to “just shut up and listen” to his wife, as Pastor Keller had with Mrs. Keller, while she told him what she had told him repeatedly before,.

Again, Pastor Wilson may very well have been in error in how he was choosing to use his time.  But whose job is it to make that decision – his wife’s or God’s?

The creators of The Art of Marriage included this anecdote as an example of the correct way to solve what may have been an error in Pastor Wilson’s decision-making.  The only way he could demonstrate that he was finally really “listening” to his wife was by agreeing with her and doing what she said.

In other words, she became the head of the marriage and his spiritual leader, and he submitted to her as unto the Lord.

And all the complementarian evangelicals said, “Amen!”

This is profoundly disturbing.

 

 

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44 thoughts on “Just shut up and listen.

  1. Here’s the deal, Sunshine. Sometimes men don’t understand the seriousness of the situation and women need a way to get their attention. Men like Dalrock have no idea WTH they are talking about and “never listen to your wife” is so anti biblical it makes my blood boil. Men are to love their wives like Christ loves the church. Does God not hear our prayers? Does God not listen to us? Does God not preserve our mental health?

    I’ve addressed this several times. Not listening to your wife is psychological abuse. Not being heard sent this woman into an emotional crisis, one in which she was destroying her wedding china. It is short hop and skip from there to completely losing your mind and becoming suicidal. Yes, you can break someone with psychological abuse, which is what many of those red pill churchians actually advocate.

    Headship as outlined in the bible was never intended to be abusive and that is exactly what Dalrock and some of the others advocate. Dominion as domination, masculinity as destruction. This garbage is so far from what the bible actually teaches it is a complete perversion.

    Liked by 1 person

      • That’s a thoughtful and interesting question. I think it is actually full of paradoxes. God has designated authority and responsibility to certain people and created gender roles, but as to hierarchies in human relationships, He actually turned that whole concept on it’s head. So in my weakness, He is strong, what you do for the least of these, you do for Him, those who are first shall go last, blessed be the meek, for they shall inherit, and so it goes, this long list of paradoxes where Jesus Christ Himself calls us to perceive human hierarchies in a different way. The human hierarchies of the world are not His hierarchies, they are houses built on sand, often entwined in deception and pride.

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  2. Dalrock has a point and as a never married, it bothers me a lot. Through weasel words, they are trying to turn marriage into a feminine dominated institution.
    We have covered this before. Christianity and feminism are mutually exclusive. It’s one or the other, ladies.

    Liked by 2 people

      • Yea, but Fuzzie, she used that “fact” to threaten him/manipulate him into saying that lucky he listened, so she “didn’t have to break more!” It’s just so nutty that this is being touted as a “godly” example to follow.

        It’s so obviously wrong, I don’t understand how people, normal Christians in the church, can accept it.

        Liked by 3 people

  3. Hmm… I do think it is horrible the way the Kellers describe the “godly tantrum.” Dalrock is pretty spot on about that.

    Of course a good husband would want to take his wife’s concerns into consideration, but the other example does sound like it becomes more of him having to follow her lead. It’s a “Wife/Mother knows best,” kind of thing it looks like.

    I understand wanting more of your husband’s time or not liking his work schedule. My husband’s current schedule is difficult for a family, especially now that our oldest son is in school, he doesn’t see him 5 nights out of 7, misses that afternoon time with his dad, dinner, and bedtime routine except for on the rare chance he gets off early on his “Friday,” which my husband does everything he can to get home early that day so that he can get 3 nights that week. He sees him before school everyday, but it’s not the same and his off days are during the week when our son is in school. So living with this schedule has been harder since he’s started school, but we just have to push through it… it will change in a few years.

    Ranting and raving about it or throwing emotional tantrums or going into self-pity mode on my part won’t help our family get through this tough time… so there’s only to endure it and try to make it the best it can be. At the same time, if he was taking lots of extra hours and we were seeing him even less, I would try to let him know how much we missed him and needed him. He doesn’t though, because he loves being home with us 🙂 but he does have lots of friends who have off-duty jobs and hardly ever see their families… there is REALLY good money in their off-duty job opportunities, but it’s not as tempting to him because he truly does value being with us more.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Ranting and raving about it or throwing emotional tantrums or going into self-pity mode on my part won’t help our family get through this tough time… so there’s only to endure it and try to make it the best it can be.

      Exactly. Your husband is choosing to work this job because he sees how it ultimately fits into his vision for your family and allows him to provide for you in the manner he deems necessary. Certainly there is nothing wrong with an ongoing conversation between you about some of the challenges the situation presents. But I can only imagine how much your husband appreciates you shouldering your share of the burden by keeping the home and caring for the children without throwing a fit to get your own way.

      At the same time, if he was taking lots of extra hours and we were seeing him even less, I would try to let him know how much we missed him and needed him.

      Of course. It’s normal and right to share your thoughts and feelings with your husband. It is also normal and right for him to give serious consideration to your thoughts and feelings when he is making decisions that affect your family.

      But even when sometimes a husband does not give that consideration as a loving husband should, a wife still does the right thing by submitting to his decision while committing herself to frequent prayer about the situation.

      Tantrums are never godly.

      Liked by 3 people

  4. Having slept on this, it doesn’t speak well. It would behoove men to be very careful and that may not be enough. That is, the men who would be dedicated husbands and fathers.

    With only a few comments, it’s not like the old blog. Last week privateman wrote a post about fixing online dating. Only a few comments there and the sense that I got was that the men are beyond being angry, they’re resigned.

    Like

  5. Sometimes men don’t understand the seriousness of the situation and women need a way to get their attention.

    While it is certainly true that men may be in situations where they lack full understanding, the idea that women “need” a way to enlighten them does not necessarily follow. First, it assumes that the woman’s assessment of the situation is correct and that her husband and family would be best served by following her path. It also betrays a certain lack of faith in God’s ability to direct her husband without her intervention. What a small God he must be: “Hey, wife – I just can’t get through to this guy. Could you talk to him, please?”

    Does God not hear our prayers? Does God not listen to us? Does God not preserve our mental health?

    Your post argues that he does not – you imply that God needs the wife to work things out when the husband is “not listening.” You state that not being listened to is “psychological abuse” and “It is short hop and skip from there to completely losing your mind and becoming suicidal.”

    This equates the outcome you desire with God listening. These two do not necessarily go hand in hand. Even in the case of Jesus it didn’t happen that way.

    You have painted your brother Dalrock in a false light, sister. He does not teach what you accuse him of, nor are the results of what he teaches what you say they are. The so-called “red pill teachings” (which I will simply call “biblical teachings”) changed the dynamics of my marriage and family for the better. My wife is happier, she demonstrates true affection for me, my children are secure and happy and we are helping to advance God’s kingdom together. No, we’re not perfect. But we know where we went wrong and we know what got us set right again.

    All glory to God!

    Liked by 3 people

  6. Here is an excerpt from my soon to be best selling book: Saving a Low Sex Marriage; The Man’s guide to Dread, Seduction and the Long Game for Insanity. Consider carefully whether you really want your husband to “love you like Christ loved the church. Do you really know what that means?

    https://bluepillprofessor.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/hello-world/

    In the New Testament, the “Bride of Christ” is the Christian Church which is the heir of the original “Bride” courted by God- the nation of Israel. Do you have any idea how many examples there are in the Bible explaining in exquisite detail how God deals with his “Bride” when she is rebellious? How about the entire book Judges, Lamentations, most of Isaiah, Jerimiah and several others.

    If you haven’t read these books I hate to spoil the plot for you but let me give you a hint that when the people of Israel turn against God, He does not remain their Best BFF it is not by being her Best Friend Forever. Nor does God does not play the part of the weak Beta man who is all forgiving, ever merciful and kind while she walks all over Him, mocks Him, and abandons Him. The Lord will not be mocked, and neither should you be mocked as a husband.

    Read the damn book and learn how God deals with His rebellious wife as recorded by the prophet Jerimiah, Chapter 12:

    I will forsake my house,
    abandon my inheritance;
    I will give the one I love
    into the hands of her enemies.
    8 My inheritance has become to me
    like a lion in the forest.
    She roars at me;
    therefore I hate her.
    9 Has not my inheritance become to me
    like a speckled bird of prey
    that other birds of prey surround and attack?
    Go and gather all the wild beasts;
    bring them to devour.
    10 Many shepherds will ruin my vineyard
    and trample down my field;
    they will turn my pleasant field
    into a desolate wasteland.

    Over and over and over again in the Old Testament God’s “Bride” turns away from him, often to “seek other Gods.” Over and over again the Lord then turns his face away from His people and lets His Bride be raped, and tortured, and abused, and humiliated. He turns His face away from them and lets their enemies seize the lands and starve, enslave, and butcher the people.

    The Lord ONLY returns His favor on the people of Israel, His bride, when they cry to Him and beg his forgiveness.

    Still think your Husband is commanded to “love you like Christ loved the church?”

    Like

      • I read your post. My opinion still stands: you are slandering a brother and falsely misrepresenting what he has said.

        In any case, I simply loved this comment to your post:

        I just read 1 Peter yesterday, and that same verse jumped out at me. Later in the evening, I had dinner with a godly friend whose marriage is on the rocks because her husband of 8 years will not listen. She’s on staff at the church and is seriously considering divorce. Great post, IB. These words need to be heard (ironically, by those who will not hear)!

        “Godly friend,” who is “seriously considering divorce” because her husband “will not listen.”

        That’s the “if we don’t do it my way, honey, I will destroy the marriage,” form of submission, which Dalrock has also pointed out to be a problem.

        If that doesn’t give some weight to Dalrock’s arguments, I don’t know what would. It’s a perfect example of what he’s talking about. Maybe this wife could find some china to smash to get her husband’s attention? I hear there’s a sale at Penney’s.

        The final travesty is that this commenter seems to find the divorce threat reasonable, tossing out the scriptural admonitions against such while latching on to the scriptural authority of I Peter to dictate husbandly behavior. If the words of Paul have authority over husbands, then the words of Jesus about divorce are a thousand times more authoritative. If this unsubmissive wife were to divorce, you can strike out the “godly” from in front of her name, because she submitted to neither her husband nor Jesus.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I messed up the formatting on that, sorry. The quote on the post was:

        “I just read 1 Peter yesterday, and that same verse jumped out at me. Later in the evening, I had dinner with a godly friend whose marriage is on the rocks because her husband of 8 years will not listen. She’s on staff at the church and is seriously considering divorce. Great post, IB. These words need to be heard (ironically, by those who will not hear)!”

        Everything else is my comments.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. Pingback: They write books…. | See, there's this thing called biology...

  8. This being pretty much a married women’s blog, I should be careful in what I say. We may be looking to place blame for leaving the barn door open after the horse has gone. While the overall marriage rate for is fity percent, over seventy percent of 20-34 year olds are single. Marriage is getting to be a tough sell.

    Like

    • With the evolution of regret rape, sex within marriage is now, more than ever, the only safe sex. That is the selling point. Feminist have somehow managed to push a traditionalist agenda. Silly feminists 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

      • It’s actually not, Kate. Their relatively new big push is to claim sex within marriage if the wife isn’t completely feeling like it, but just gives in, is actually also “rape.”

        They will never push a “traditionalist agenda,” and with this new claim that consensual sex within marriage is actually “marital rape,” they are only giving women more ammunition to use against their husbands that they begrudgingly have sex with.

        That’s definitely not pushing traditionalism, it’s still fighting tooth and nail against what marriage should be like, and calling wives that willingly give their husbands sex even on nights where they’re tired or not feeling like it, “rape victims.”

        Liked by 2 people

      • Dragonfly,
        That is alarming. It would be no trouble for a vindictive wife to set up an innocent husband for a hard fall. This is what happens when an ideology promotes the concept that women are goddesses and men are to be their slaves. It can only work for a brief time.

        Liked by 1 person

  9. Yes, Fuzzie, it’s actually gotten so prevalent, women (feminists) claiming that consensual sex because you love and care for your husband and want to meet his needs is rape, that April from The Peaceful Wife even had to do a video explaining why it wasn’t rape.

    Just crazy!

    Like

    • This is not good. When fifty percent of marriages end up in divorce and only fifty percent of adults are marrird, it won’t take much to tip the institution over the cliff. This may do it.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Bike Bubba,
        We’re in socially uncharted territory here. I wouldn’t dismiss the possibility out of hand. Considring Helen Smith’s book, we may already be there.

        Like

    • I’ve been hearing that since the 1980s, and I believe the first time I heard that, it was from a law professor at Michigan, Catharine MacKinnon. As Thomas Sowell noted, there are some ideas so idiotic that they can only find a home in elite universities.

      Liked by 1 person

  10. I left essentially this same post over at IB’s site:

    I agree that both partners should attempt to empathize and empathy is generally lacking in marriages. The wife should take a moment and reflect on the fact that her husband has had a long long day at work and all he wants right now is some sanctuary and respite, not to listen to a stream of complaints/tasks and so forth. The husband, in turn, should pause and reflect on what the wife is experiencing that really listen. This is true of all human communication, not just marriage. People tend to have a personal agenda when they communicate and it’s difficult to push their own agenda to the side and consider what the other person is going through and actually trying to say.
    However, in my personal experience men do this far far better than woman. And in my personal experience the more therapy and “talking about feelings” couples do, the more one-sided things became (not in the man’s favor).
    Men generally want to solve problems, women generally want to talk about them.
    So, at the end of the day, I must admit I know of marriages that are toxic because the husband treats the wife with contempt. But (and we’ve been here before) I know of MORE marriages that are toxic and/or have ended because the wife is obsessed with the negative and the husband could never listen enough or do enough, and the bottom line is she simply doesn’t respect him. So I do not believe that women are “wiser” in this way. Not at all.
    For rough example, in this particular case the woman smashing dishes who wanted to “be heard” was not very concerned with her husband’s feelings. It sounds far more like he was concerned with hers.

    Side note, as a military spouse I can empathize that it is a hard life when one’s spouse works long hours and is away a lot. I’ve spent many many holidays alone with the kids. I don’t think this woman handled things very well nor do I think the china plate smasher handled things well.

    Like

  11. I’m thinking everybody is missing some things here. If I read Scripture right, 1 Corinthians 7 says that neither spouse ought to neglect providing that marital comfort without the consent of both spouses, and that for a time of prayer. As Jews actually had tables of how often a wife might expect sex from her husband, Paul’s really building on a cultural understanding he grew up with; if the job is so darned interesting that the wife is not, then the husband has a problem.

    Really, it’s one place where the position of the wife is more equal with that of the husband. So I would infer that yes, Keller needed a rebuke (his wife should have taken it to the elders and the church, no?), but I can’t quite square this with Matthew 18.

    This sad case is a brilliant episode of the consequences of a man following the “bitch goddess” of success and neglecting his more important relationships, IMO.

    Liked by 1 person

    • It actually seems more that she probably should have used a different approach (and had been using a negative approach like nagging and whining instead of calmly and respectfully), letting him know how much she needs him there and how it hurts her intimacy (emotional) with him.

      There are positive ways a wife can relate this that would make him more likely to listen and agree with her, and then negative ways that push him further away from being at home (it gets her the opposite of what she would want from him). Most women automatically go to the negative ways because we’ve never been taught the positive ways a wife can interact with her husband without being critical of him and disrespecting him in the process.

      One may claim it’s sexist to say that a man needs his ego treated respectfully, or to acknowledge that his wife can influence his decisions with her approach, but it doesn’t make it any less true that when a wife repeatedly tramples on his male ego, that she doesn’t also turn him off and away from her and the things she may want from him. The way he reacted – very cowardly to her “godly tantrum” – leads me to think that he just needed a better approach from her about the subject… definitely not a church rebuke that would shame him unnecessarily, unless you think she also needed to be rebuked for her carefully calculated act of “domestic violence” in their home?

      Let me tell you though, if a wife came home to her husband smashing their dishes so that he could get her to “listen” to him about needing more sex, she’d probably go to the media outlets to make fun of his “godly tantrum!” But when this woman does it, she gets it praised from Christians all over, written about in a book chapter, and her example gets taught as a way to get a husband’s attention. Just nuts….

      Liked by 1 person

    • At the risk of saying too much here, I should be clear that I’m not saying that the Kellers’ issues are just about sex, and I’m certainly not excusing smashing the family china. More or less what I’m saying is that both Kellers apparently got into a wrestling match in the pigsty and are now shocked, SHOCKED to find themselves covered in manure.

      And Biblically, there is a much better way if only we will allow it.

      Like

  12. Pingback: Is the problem a lack of listening or a lack of submitting? | The Sunshine Thiry Blog

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  14. Hey Sunshine,

    Didn’t know you were all on this corner of the world. Hi to all here.

    Speaking indirectly in riddles and complaining the husband is ‘not getting it’ is disrespectful. Nothing new for modern marriages.

    Expecting him to just get it is expecting a degree of insight he may not have. Another unrealistic expectation unfulfilled, and she hates him for it because in admitting it, she feels devalued by his lack of wifespeak, because in her eyes his supposed deficiency reflects badly on her. It’s always about her, after all. It’s taken a long time to get my head around that viewpoint.

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  15. Pingback: He was like a little boy that night. | Dalrock

  16. “The Bible says the husband is to be the head of the wife. He should listen to her and then make a decision about what course of action is best to pursue. ”

    Can you show me where the Bible says the husband should listen to the wife’s advice?

    I do see Gen. 3:17 – To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.

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  17. Pingback: How to tell if you are a godly man. | Dalrock

  18. This is reposted from Dalrock on this subject:

    Robin Munn says: “Two different meanings of “listening” going on here.”

    For many years I would have agreed with you about this. However, it has become evident to me that the second listening – “I’m going to hear your opinions about this decision, because you may have some insight that I wouldn’t have.” – is actually a subset of the first.

    Eve first had to offer her advice to Adam, argue for it, tell him why it was good, etc. So I don’t think Eve used the listening – “doing what I say” – rather she gave him her viewpoints; and they were totally wrong.

    You will recall that scripture says that Adam was not deceived, Eve was deceived. Thus Gen. 3:17 is referring to this “let me give my opinions” rather than “do as I say”.

    In our modern age, women insist on giving their opinions no matter how offbase, nutty or irrelevant. Yes, some of their ideas can be of value. But the majority of them will have a negative effect.

    Women vote for security, lack of risk, being “nice”, and all the other things that have screwed up society. So what kind of advice do you think they are going to give you when you have a decision to make?

    “Oh, that’ll never work”, “that’s risky, etc. The same as they vote. Therefore in the vast majority of cases their advice is a negative as to what a man should be doing and will hold him back and keep him from reaching his potential, be it at manhood, business, or family.

    Gen. 3:17 is about taking wifely advice.

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