If all you see is crap, you may be a fly.

…and when all you see is garbage, you are probably a garbage collector.

Crap, garbage, four-leaf clovers…it’s all the same Game, isn’t it.

 

 

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106 thoughts on “If all you see is crap, you may be a fly.

  1. The lesson for young ladies is that if you are not crap or garbage, avoid flies and garbage collectors.  Not all men are like that, which you probably already know since the flies and garbage collectors are drawn to their natural targets whilst bitching loudly the entire time; this loud bitching is very helpful because it alerts you to their presence, allowing you to identify them quickly and flee the garbage dump in the vicinity.

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  2. Sunshine,
    I am not as good as Rollo in taking the other side of this argument but, here goes. That American women want to exercise hypergamy comes at a steep price. You can’t bend market economics all to heck without incurring some downside. That women wanted to play out of their league cost them dearly and it was permanence in relationships. From somone on the wrong side of the 80/20 rule, I can say that something like this had to come about because there aren’t enough twenty percent men to accommodate eighty percent of women.
    Years ago, Susan Walsh tried to address this in a video. The closing line, addressed to women, was, “”Go for the Dads, not the cads.” It failed and she has since taken it down from youtube.
    I think it was Karen Straughan that made the obeservation that the Sexual Revolution for women was all about inproving the quality of men they could draw. Women never had to worry about sexual access.
    To sum it up, this is what happens when assortive mating gets tossed out the window In favor of the tournament social model, which I don’t think ever worked with humans due to the overwhelming need for parental investment by children.
    Don’t get mad at me. I am in the bottom eighty percent. I get to live a life made less complicated by celibacy.

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    • But you see Fuzzie, there are many normal men and women. You need to get out more and look around. Seriously, I interact with very normal non-slut, non-garbageman people every day. That isn’t to say that there are NO lessons to be learned about the fall out from the sexual revolution – there are, in particular with respect to the harm divorce has (and continues) to cause. And that isn’t to say there are not men and women who have made choices that render them poor potential marriage partners – there are! But did you read that article? I wouldn’t have even bothered to respond to it – I don’t read the site it was published on – were it not the fact that it popped up on several other sites that I do read. It is no more a true picture of all American women than the feminist portrayal of all American white men as hegemonic, oppressive, wannabe rapists.

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    • With all the damage that’s been done, Fuzzie, 50% of adults are still married. So there is hope for the “bottom 80%”, to which I think I also belong. Take care of yourself physically and mentally, get to know some people (church is a great place and where I met Mrs. Bubba), and you’ll be surprised what can happen. There are lots of people who have never ridden the carousel, and even more who have been there and want nothing to do with it. At home, disease free and sober can be a great place to be.

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    • Sunshine and Bike Bubba,
      One of the first posts I read in this corner of the internet was years ago by Dalrock. The pastor heard that the single girls weren’t getting enough attention so he made a suggestion. Nuclear rejjections all over the parking lot. The church boys weren’t good enough for the church girls. This took place in Malibu CA where the 6/6/6 rule applies. Over six foot with a six figure income; if not, deep six him!
      It’s not just the RoK crowd that is saying this stuff.

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      • OK, first of all, how many people live in Malibu without a pretty decent income? So I’ve got to start by questioning a good part of your premiss–how many young men getting nuclear rejections really fail the number of the beast rule?

        Plus, if you’re not getting traction among spoiled rich girls in Malibu….well, DUH, you shake the dust off your shoes and go elsewhere. It can be hard, but again–half of adults are married, more otherwise in relationships. There are decent people out there.

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  3. Sunshine takes us back into time with a goodie!

    @fwb
    “I get to live a life made less complicated by celibacy.”

    As one who has never been, never needed, or never been interested in game due to the fact that I’ve never had any problems – EVER – securing the affections and attention of women of all stripes and lots in life, I gotta tell you – it makes me tired just thinking about the work and pressure of trying to maintain any sort of STR or LTR in this day and age.

    Not having to be concerned about the pressure to make “it” happen when she just can’t take it any more and feels like she has to get some…its so refreshing.

    I don’t know where I was when Zippy put up those two posts, but they were quite enlightening. I was wondering why he and Cane and Dalrock and deti seemed to be at such odds with one another about “game”, when I’m thinking they all had to agree that the whole sexual marketplace is a heaping pile of satanic mess, and that folks should be abstinent or trying to keep their notch count to a minimum in order to be considered a suitable partner.

    Most of the women I know (as NICE as they are) are sluts. And without saying anything, I can feel in my spirit, the lack of contentment in them as they have shared about their past relationships/marriages/dating experiences.

    A brotha doesn’t have time to do that. That’s been my fatal, heartbreaking flaw as a man, trying to elevate women who either didn’t want to – or were capable of being elevated. So other than my daughter and my mother and a few respected married women in the Lord (with whom I’m also friends with their husbands) I simply am spent dealing with them.

    Ladies, we can go for coffee and I’ll share links to funny YouTube videos, fitness/health articles, silly memes, and a link or two to SSM or Elspeth or April’s or Lori’s blog to put something on your mind (if you dare to read it), but just don’t ask me for anything. I don’t trust you, and the though of having to navigate through the fog of your questionable escapades, makes my stomach hurt. I don’t know where you’ve been, who you’ve touched, who has touched you, and I’m simply allergic to un-confessed and un-repented-of sin.

    I’m busy.

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  4. Alright, I’ve settled down enough to write a sensible comment. There is RISK in putting yourself out there for a relationship. RISK. It might not work out, you might get your heart broken, it might take a long time to recover and meet someone else. But if you ever want a chance at happiness with another human being, you have to be willing to take the (calculated) risk.

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  5. I was going to post a heated response. And then after cooling down some, a sarcastic one. But after some contemplation, I want to offer this:

    Yes, the article in question is full of generalizations. There are American women who do not fit that pattern. I know some.

    But at the same time you also offer generalizations Sunshine. I see garbage all the time. Does that make me a garbage collector? I suppose I should mention that I don’t make it a regular practice to trawl dumps too.

    The truth is that I have to spend time and effort to not see garbage. And when I don’t, it is usually because I don’t see much at all.

    There are several problems with that article. Not the least of which is that many American women aren’t even good for what he purports them to be. But if he was to have given a percentage, rather than simply saying all? Well, I might well have agreed if it had been a reasonable number.

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    • I was going to post a heated response. And then after cooling down some, a sarcastic one.

      I’m curious about this; why did you have such an emotional response? Did you have a similar response when Vox Day wrote:

      I don’t at all agree with Donovan Sharpe that American women are only good for one thing

      about the same RoK article? If not, why?

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      • Good questions. I will answer this one first:

        Did you have a similar response when Vox Day wrote:

        I don’t at all agree with Donovan Sharpe that American women are only good for one thing.

        The answer is no. I didn’t. In my cursory examination of his post, I found myself mostly in agreement. And his words didn’t create a strong emotional reaction.

        This brings me to your third question:

        If not, why?

        The most likely reason is because his opinion was relatively straightforward and focused simply on the opinion itself, and not the person holding it. In effect it was: “I strongly disagree.”

        This brings me to your first question:

        why did you have such an emotional response?

        It was a combination of several factors, I think. One reason was because of some negative personal experiences with the “gentler sex” in the past few days. Another was because of some of some e-mails and other contact with other men I’ve had in the past few days, in which they’ve detailed their own personal experiences with women. Couple that with my own difficult in avoiding “garbage,” must less finding “non-garbage”, and that your particular response focused as much on the opinion holder (in a negative way) as the opinion itself, and an emotional response would be only natural at first.

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  6. The truth is that I have to spend time and effort to not see garbage. And when I don’t, it is usually because I don’t see much at all.

    Donal, with as much respect as I can muster, I suspect you are basing this entirely on reading the manosphere.

    Are there single (never married) mothers? Yes, way too many of them, and they tend to be very risky bets for marriage. Are all American women – or even the majority of them – single never married mothers? No, they aren’t. The reasonable response is to write, “There are many single mothers and they are too risky for marriage, by and large. Avoid them.” That’s a far cry from saying ALL American women are single mothers and horrible parents and therefor ALL American women are ONLY good for pump-and-dump sex.

    But at the same time you also offer generalizations Sunshine. I see garbage all the time. Does that make me a garbage collector? I suppose I should mention that I don’t make it a regular practice to trawl dumps too.

    There wasn’t a “few things wrong” with that article, Donal; it was literally unreality. What is says is not reality outside of the garbage dump. If everything you see around you is garbage, Donal, I’m sorry but you are in a dump. There’s no other nicer way to put it.

    I’ve spent a lot of time around some very young women over the past year. Not one of them – out of maybe a hundred that I’ve casually spent time around and 30-40 that I know pretty well – fits the characterization in that article. Literally zero of them. No single mothers, no faux I-can-beat-up-men attitude, none of it. They have some annoying female characteristics that rear their head from time to time – cattiness, gossip on occasion, mean-girlyness. That sort of thing. Occasionally I hear some very unrealistic romantic dreams. But for the most part, they are serious, hard-working young women. Of course, these young women are not the “average American woman”…but then who is? It’s a big country out there, and you might want to consider whether or not you are judging people on reality or if you’re maybe making some seriously unwarranted assumptions.

    Just a thought.

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  7. I’ve been trying to find a certain data set, with no luck. What I want to know is what percentage of women will ever have an OOW child, broken down by race. All I can easily find are the percentage of children who are born out of wedlock, but those are two very, very different statistics. If anyone has access to a source of data that lists what percentage of women have OOW kids, I’d like to look at it, especially at the racial data.

    As it stands right now, about 75% of black children are born OOW and 29% of white children are born OOW. Those stats change when you start controlling for education level.

    The question I’m trying to answer is this: Is it true or false that all American women are single, never-married mothers? I mean, obviously that’s false, but is it something that is sort of close to the truth or not? I suspect it is true for some sub-categories of the population and false for others, making the overall premise false.

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    • The CDC has the data you’re looking for. (It also shows that the black OOW rate is not 75%, but lower and is reversing as married black women have more babies.)

      What you want is children born to never-married women, and those data sets (there are many, this is something that is tracked pretty intensively) are available. The hard part is accounting for the women who have children OOW and then marry and have more children. That would involve some slicing and dicing, as I don’t think that’s broken out.

      Another point in the OOW issue is cohabitation. Having a kid OOW while you’re living with the father is worse than being married first, but significantly less bad than not living with the father when the baby comes. And most OOW children are currently born to cohabiters (including most black OOW children), many of whom don’t marry because of the financial incentives against it. The effective financial penalties for being married with kids and not making top 25% income are not trivial and they are brutal if the couple’s household income is under 50k/year.

      Lastly on this point, all races of women have converged on a lifetime fertility of 15-20 children per ten women, with Asians on the lowest end of that, blacks and whites in the middle and Hispanics at the higher end. Hispanics are also having longer generations, dropping their higher teen motherhood propensity. IOW, people aren’t having many kids period and the single-mom contingent by definition can’t be very many women with those kinds of lifetime birth numbers.

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  8. Ok, I see we have a male/female communications thing going on. Let me just say that I think we are talking past each other here. I don’t think we mean that same things with some of the words we are using, and this leads to these kinds of problems.

    I will try and correct a few things here:

    First: I don’t agree with the article. I don’t.

    Second: My primary objection was to your statement “when all you see is garbage, you are probably a garbage collector.” I objected not because I see only garbage (which I noted), but see a lot. And I could understand how some men might think its all they see too (as wrong as it might be, I understand how they could think that).

    Third: Part of my response was based in part on your other comments, not necessarily the post from ROK. I don’t even read ROK, much less desire to defend it.

    Fourth: I live in a different part of the country from you. And that means different demographics. Very different demographics. Which means that my experiences are no doubt quite different from yours. Trust me when I say that not everything I think is influenced by the manosphere.

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  9. The question I’m trying to answer is this: Is it true or false that all American women are single, never-married mothers? I mean, obviously that’s false, but is it something that is sort of close to the truth or not? I suspect it is true for some sub-categories of the population and false for others, making the overall premise false.

    I suspect that those women who do have children OOW are probably over-represented. However, their actions and behaviors make them seem more common or visible than they really are. For a thought comparison: Some men in the ‘sphere argue that most men are invisible to women. This is something of a reverse situation perhaps, where some women are more visible than others. Thus they seem to represent a far greater part of the population than they really do.

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  10. It is good that Donalgraeme joined in. He’s single and can speak to the marketplace as it is. Since I’ve known him, he has been looking. That he hasn’t had sucess is more telling of the market than him.
    A thought did occur to me about the RoK post. It does address the very real possibility that American men can lose confidence in their women. I think it was Vox Day that mentioned when American women are transferred ti China, nobody will date them, not the locals and not other Americans.

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      • Young men are dealing with three things:
        1. a very real disproportionate sex ratio skewed in favor of women
        http://jonathansoma.com/singles/#2/4/0/0
        Play around with the ages on that.

        2. Some resulting bad behavior as some women take advantage of their power position (the open marriage article, etc.)

        3. a culture of despair: There are 7.2 billion people on the planet. You need only find 1. Keep that in mind when you feel overwhelmed.

        In my mind, there are three solutions:

        1. I know you’re opposed to online dating, but what other avenue allows you to meet ten, twenty, fifty people a day, if you so chose. You have to approach it like a job. Set a two hundred mile radius. Send out five messages a day, etc.

        2. If the location really is a bad one, MOVE. I do not say this as a joke. If you have family, property, a good job etc., that you don’t want to leave, I understand that. If there is nothing holding you back, go. If you like where you are but you don’t have anyone to share it with, again, online dating and IMPORT your wife.

        3. Understand that most of the reading material on the manosphere is from people who have FAILED at relationships. (Not to mention they may literally be describing the SMP of some area of the world no decent person would ever step foot in. Talk about a confirmation bias!) Now I’m not saying they don’t have some valuable perspectives if they are truly willing to understand why they failed and share that instead of only blaming the other person, but it’s important to keep that in mind. You’ve got to listen to the people who SUCCEEDED. The only way to succeed is to NEVER GIVE UP.

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    • It is a shame that we have moved on to a new thread but, as long as this marketplace ill serves Donal, I’ll stand by what I said.

      Kate,
      You may not be aware of it but, hypergamy is built into the cake of online dating to the point where a man has apply himself to women two and half poins down on the scale to be “equal”. This doesn’t work out long term.

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      • Hypergamy exists everywhere. It’s an unavoidable part of the game. As someone wise once told me, “You take the claws with the kitten.”

        Someone two and a half points below you is fine. It does work out long term because you are always more “valuable” than they are. They continue to admire and look up to you. Hypergamy doesn’t stop because someone gets married. It is only ever quelled.

        I hope Sunshine doesn’t mind the link, but I don’t want to copy my whole post. I think it applies here: https://themintermonologues.wordpress.com/2015/06/25/the-making-of-a-unicorn/

        I think everybody needs to realize that a perfectly formed human being does not drop into one’s lap. That the two of you

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  11. When I was running groups in a state-mandated domestic violence batterers intervention program, I noticed pretty quickly what the literature already tells us.

    Most people in that crowd are personality disordered, drug/alcohol abusers. More specifically, the men tend to have features consistent with antisocial or narcissistic PD, and the women manifest traits from the borderline and histrionic criteria sets.

    There were groups for both male and female batterers, but I didn’t run any female ones.

    I started to develop a little narrative that eventually came out something like this:

    “You guys ever watch the show ‘COPS?’ You ever see that episode where the cops show up at the domestic violence incident, and the woman is in the corner crying. Then you see the dude sitting on the couch watching TV with beer bottles everywhere, telling the cops to get the f@#$ out of his house? Of course, like every episode right? Your life is like that right? Probably multiple times. Same girlfriend, different name, times x number of girlfriends and trips to jail.

    If you walked into a room with 500 women, and 499 of them were well adjusted, psychologically healthy, well boundried, nice, non-alcoholic girls from intact normal families you would be attracted to the ONE crazy, daddy issues, borderline personality disordered drama queen with 4 kids from 4 different fathers. And SHE would be attracted to you. You would find each other like magnets.”

    Now since then, I have swallowed the “red pill.” However, the basic truth of that speech remains. There is a subconscious level of attraction that goes on here. Indeed, the increase in that kind of psychopathology is caused by all kinds of social experiments gone wrong–many of which have been explored thoroughly in the manosphere by the Rollos of the world. This is a great sadness and we all are paying for it now. I offer no real suggestions as to what to do about it, but it is what it is.

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  12. Second: My primary objection was to your statement “when all you see is garbage, you are probably a garbage collector.” I objected not because I see only garbage (which I noted), but see a lot. And I could understand how some men might think its all they see too (as wrong as it might be, I understand how they could think that).

    Did you take it personally? Because you should not have. This, like the two posts of Zippy’s that I linked to, is pretty firmly oriented at the idea that pick up artists are picking up high quality women who are representative of women as a whole. Zippy’s point was that they aren’t, they’re the equivalent of sexual garbage collectors.

    But you know what? It actually really bothers me to refer to people as garbage. At least a garbage collector has some choice in the matter, but garbage just is what it is, and people are not garbage. There are women who are not marriageable due to the very poor and sinful choices they have made, and men should learn to identify such women. They can pray for those women, they can try to point those women in the right direction, but they owe it to their future children not to marry them unless they feel they are being directed to do so by God.

    And the same is true in the reverse; sexual garbage collectors are men who have chronically made very poor and sinful choices. They are not a good bet for marriage and women should avoid them – completely avoid them. I don’t think women should try to point those men in the right direction; that’s for other men to do. Women should avoid such men and have literally nothing whatsoever to do with them.

    So there was really no message for you per se Donal, since you’ve chosen not to be a cad. But if you want a message, here it is: why are you giving so much credence to the opinions of sexual garbage collectors? Do you honestly believe these men have access to marriageable women?

    Donal, don’t kid yourself that the people you’ve lent your ear to are neutral players here. They have an agenda as much as anyone has. Furthermore, people who are down in a pit usually want to pull others in with them. You don’t have to be naive, a fool, or a chump about the evil days we live in or marry a risky woman, but neither do you have to choose of your own accord to abandon reality and jump into a pit full of poison.

    I live in a different part of the country from you. And that means different demographics. Very different demographics. Which means that my experiences are no doubt quite different from yours. Trust me when I say that not everything I think is influenced by the manosphere.

    I know that where I currently live does not represent the “average”. The town I live in is rural, well-to-do, mostly racially and religiously homogeneous, has a higher than average marriage rate and a lower than average divorce rate, and so on. However, it is a real place and there are others like it, and though it has its problems, I would consider most of the single young women here to be relatively marriageable from a secular standpoint (which is my way of saying that by age 20, many of them have probably already slept with their boyfriends but very few of them are going to rack up +5 partner counts).

    I think Kate’s suggestion of moving if you can to be reasonable if you are still thinking about marrying. That may be my bias, though: to a small-town Michigander, it is literally unbelievable that someone would choose of their own free will to live in the state in which you reside. 🙂 It sounds like hell on earth to me, but then again I have misanthropic tendencies.

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    • Did you take it personally? Because you should not have.

      I did at first, and yes, I know I shouldn’t have. Which is why I didn’t comment right away. And yes, I should have waited longer.

      But you know what? It actually really bothers me to refer to people as garbage

      Yes, you are right. Everyone, even those who seem like nothing, have inherent human dignity. Always good to remind myself about that.

      But if you want a message, here it is: why are you giving so much credence to the opinions of sexual garbage collectors? Do you honestly believe these men have access to marriageable women?

      I am not. This is where I messed up that communication thing. I don’t give them much credence. Heck, I don’t even read ROK, and wouldn’t have read that piece if you hadn’t linked it. I don’t read other PUA blogs or pages. And I mostly don’t read secular blogs either. I am basing things on what I see and have experienced. And on what other Christian men have seen and experienced. No, I don’t believe that those men really have access to marriageable women. And you know what, neither do most Christian men.

      I don’t think you understand what it is like for us Sunshine. Not everything makes it to a post. Plenty of my communications with Christian men stay personal, mostly via e-mail but sometimes other sources. These are not garbage collectors. They are single Christian men like me trying to find a unicorn. Or they are married Christian men who are trying to keep what they have, or concerned about their kids, or just plain appalled by how bad things are now.

      I suppose they could be lying, but I don’t think so. Too much of what they relate is similar to my own experiences, including that which I don’t talk about.

      Moving can be easier said than done. It isn’t exactly a great job market out there. I have plans to do so, and hopefully it will be to a better locale. But even in the place you describe, things aren’t really that rosy for me, or men in my position.

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      • This is a great comment for me to jump off of and clarify my first one. Reading back over it, it looks like I am basically calling you a fly or garbage collector.

        Recall that I wrote “the increase in that kind of psychopathology” and I want to expand on that a bit.

        At this point in American cultural history, EVERYONE has several features of personality pathology and a huge portion are probably diagnosable. This is the result of, for the most part, DRIVING IT INTO the internal structure of the whole population of the western world. We have done so with all manner of bizarre, godless rhetoric and mantras for several generations now.

        Narcissism, antisocial, borderlin-ey, histrionic people are the norm now. The next iteration of the DSM should be rewritten to define the Donal Graemes, Scotts and Sunshine Thirys of the world as crazy.

        Just wanted to make sure you understand–I believe your search is for a unicorn. My son comes home from a standard, American High School in the heartland of “conservative” America with story after story of how depraved his peers are.

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    • @Sunshine

      “It sounds like hell on earth to me, but then again I have misanthropic tendencies.”

      If your brand of misanthropy is like my mutant cynicism, then we are in tandem.
      @Kate Minter:

      Perfectly formed is one thing…it would be nice if an old balding ape like me could engage with any sort of earnestness with a woman who hungered and thirsted for righteousness even a “teeny” bit, who actually READ the Word a “teeny” bit, and who actually didn’t think that the teachings of our Master and Messiah weren’t a bunch B.S. on the low.

      I’m knocking the late 40’s early 50’s thing over the head, and even with all of my travails, I’ve not forsaken my foundation in Christ. I’ve gotten to the point that, outside of my circle of married men and women friends, and my family full of preachers, I hold my breath when I ask a woman if she’s a “believer”. They look at you like…”hmmm..now how do I answer that question without being judged?”

      At the risk of sounding arrogant, I’m not convinced I’ll find someone who takes care of their temple as well as I do, who has the intellectual curiosity that I do, who is ambitious as I am, who has done the work to slay the demons of their past and forsake their sinful ways as I have tried, and who actually gives a hoot about the things of the spirit the way I do.

      I feel like i’m constantly dumbing down damn near everything. I know that a lot of the men in the manuresphere (to quote The Black Pill..LOL) say that a woman has to step into YOUR frame, but I think that it would be quite interesting to find a woman who has challenged me to step up MY game.

      And at the risk of sounding double minded, I don’t what I’d do if I met one. Part of me would be intrigued, and another part of me would be weary of yet another Eve and her fakery.

      *sigh*

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      • Perhaps you could try phrasing that question a different way. Asking a woman if she’s a believer is going to elicit a “yes,” “no,” “sort of,” answer, and, if you think about it, if you do get the “yes” you want to hear, you’re still not even certain her form of believing is complementary to yours.

        Maybe try asking her: “What do you believe?” It’s a less pressure-packed way that should yield a more descriptive answer, even if she isn’t entirely sure what she believes. This could lead to an entire discussion that might illustrate a willingness to learn.

        Someone who is as devout as you causing you to step up your game, would be interesting, yes. But don’t discount how rewarding it is to inspire others to become better people. You could be the one to bring light into her world. The first question belies the expectation that the person be perfectly formed first before you accept them. The second approach implies you are willing to accept an imperfect person as they are and share in the glory of their growth.

        (None of this is to say “man up and marry single mothers.” Single people should marry single people. Unmarried people with children should marry unmarried people with children. Divorced people should marry divorced people. Divorced people with children should marry divorced people with children. Mixing and matching means you’ll never truly be able to understand the other person’s experience.)

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      • Maybe instead of flat out asking about faith, let the cat out of the bag gently–speak of how your faith informs your life. Show how your faith informs your life–that’s not tough in our debauched society IMO. You may find someone who’s purer than you would have ever guessed possible, or at least repentant beyond your dreams.

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  13. So seriously, do Christian women REALLY want andare attracted to a man who is all about the Father’s business without apology? And if so, how does that quality compete with the LAMPS/PSALM model?

    I joined a bunch of Meetup groups in my city and have been meeting a lot of interesting people, saved and unsaved. Outside of the obvious physical attraction I generate from many of the women…what I found is that if I keep it light and not talk about anything as it relates to my faith and convictions and just act like one of the cool guys, it’s a more pleasant experience.

    But I know me…I really do. Something is going to come up and I’m going to say something “judgy” about something that’s going on in this dismal city, and then that will be it.

    At both my family Church and the Church where I do volunteer work, there are mostly very young single mothers or older women who have crashed headlong into the wall, and have let themselves go, or who ‘grace and peace’ you all day long, but whose outside interests and ambitions are nothing like mine; and married women who I catch eyeing me occasionally.

    Online dating is a fools errand. Too much time and energy being “vetting” by women whose SMV is 20 points lower than mine or who are divorced and have small children whom they tell you “is my entire world”.

    Plus I don’t need it. Being approached or being received well by the opposite sex is not my issue.

    An equally yoked woman in her late 40’s who has her stuff together and would not be a mismatch…sure would be nice. I think I’m babbling.

    Yeah…I’m babbling.

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    • Perhaps you’re in the wrong geographic area. If you want ambitious, knowledgable women who keep themselves in good shape, and who are traditionally minded (as long as they’re not truly traditional, because you don’t want them focusing on their children too much), maybe you need a different city.

      But to be honest, maybe you need a different mindset. If you consider that everybody you meet is less worthy than you in every respect, and you believe that most women are icky – you don’t know where they’ve been and who’s touched them – you’ve put up some pretty high barriers. To just about everyone on the planet.

      Especially if you demand that she be religious, but you don’t want her to be like the devout women who ‘grace and peace’ you.

      Like

      • @bodycrimes…

        Well I’ve been presented with a lot of women who are divorced with children, and, like Sunshine wrote, and DeepStrength has admonished…these are the women I should avoid. So I guess it wouldn’t be fair to fault them for making their children a priority. My daughter is grown and on her own…so I don’t have those concerns, and should consider those in the same lot.

        And forgive my style of communicating…what you read is a tad bit of vexation. It’s not that any woman is unworthy of me…because who the hell am I…it’s just that…I suppose I only trust in ME.

        Another thing that influences my thinking is that to which I have been privy. I lament having been told and brought in on some of the most unfortunate things in the lives of my sisters in Christ, my neighbors and family members of the female persuasion. And while I know that a male party was involved as well in these matters, it’s just…concerning.

        Now about demanding she be “religious”. I don’t demand. I suppose if one says they are a Christian, they should have somewhat of a scriptural world view. The “grace and peace” part was tongue in cheek for women who have nothing else to say BUT that. If you ask them anything outside of churchiology, they look at you like you have a booger in your nose.

        I want to be able to communicate regarding matters of this like in a normal fashion. I’d prefer they spoke in English and not tongues, thank you very much. 🙂

        I’d like devout. But I’m beginning to wonder what that even means anymore.

        Shared values, shared interests, shared burdens, shared “attitudes” about the things of God. I’d be cool with that.

        But I’ve been lied to so much…and I realize why, my sisters.

        I think that women have LIED to me about what they were really about because I’ve shown my hand too quickly.

        They have read things I’ve written online, overheard some of my conversations and have watched my reactions to things going on around me, and have decided that if I knew about where they REALLY were in their walk, I’d reject them.

        My sister told me, “Pedat these chicks LIE to you because thy don’t wanna hear your damn mouth.”

        And I have to say…that really hurts. It makes me sad.

        Like

  14. I read this young woman sometimes. She seems pretty marriageable, although she’s not Catholic.
    http://ladybibliophile.blogspot.com/

    There are thousands like her, and it only takes one to make a wife. I live in whitopia myself, in a land where divorce is traditional and yet there are still lots of young women desiring to marry and have more than three kids.

    Much like women pushing 40 or even 50 with 400 point lists, there is a type of man who is waiting around for a woman he’s aged out of being able to marry and just won’t accept that.

    It’s hard to find someone, to be vulnerable, and so on and so forth. But it’s not impossible, it’s simply a matter of being honest about what your options really are. Not everyone will do this, especially in the public light that is the internet. But that’s not the same as ‘it’s a unicorn hunt’. No, it’s a horse hunt, you just are making it hard because you can’t get a unicorn and don’t want a horse, no matter how devout and virginal and wifelike she is. The “you” is generic.

    Like

    • Vox Day has been posting some stuff written by a gentleman who goes by “Delta Man.” I have no idea if this information would be helpful to anyone who may be reading this, but you’ll quite possibly get better advice from Vox than you would from a PUA site, even though Vox is part of the “pro-game” crowd. I’m not “recommending” his advice per se, but I’ll just throw the links out here for interested people to read and consider, even if you ultimately decide it’s not the right course of action for you. But the reason I thought of this was when I read TPC’s comment above, I thought about this excerpt from one of Vox’s posts:

      If a sample (12-36) of 5’3” 160 pound women aren’t interested in you at all then this clearly, without exception means you are not even average. You are probably in the 1-3 range and likely a Gamma. There’s no way around this fact because you just went and tested the market and received your feedback in the form of actual data. This isn’t some silly quiz, or your best friend telling you what you want to hear about yourself. This is the market responding to you, and I bet you like the free market. Well, the sexual market is free too and speaks loudly about the participants. Don’t stop, and don’t let this fact make you give up. I know it does for a lot of men, especially Gammas who constantly think they are special snowflakes.

      Now it’s time to aim for the threes and fours if the fives aren’t biting. This means they will likely have a higher BMI, have a number of failed relationships behind them, possible have a child, be unattractive, extremely socially awkward or weird, have dead end or no jobs, or possibly even suffer from emotional problems. I’m not going to romanticize this at all, which is what Gammas are prone to do with the fantasy of the pretty girl who thinks they are ugly. That’s pure fiction and the women in this stratum know they aren’t as desirable as other women, but they aren’t evil or wicked human beings either because of their low rank. Are you worthless because you can’t score average women? Nope. It just means you are below average like millions of other people. You need to find where you fit in.

      Again, I’m not recommending this strategy per se, but if it’s helpful to someone, well that’s great. FWIW.

      Delta Perspective: Dating Part I
      http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2015/07/delta-perspective-dating-part-i.html

      Delta Perspective: Dating Part 2
      http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2015/07/delta-perspective-dating-part-2.html

      Delta Perspective: You Aren’t a Realist you are a Pessimist
      http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2015/07/delta-perspective-you-arent-realist-you.html

      Like

      • Sunshine, that stuff that Vox presents, while thorough..makes my stomach hurt and gives me a headache for the men to whom he’s relating.

        I know for a fact that the problem is me.

        As one considered by a lot of the brothers to be s Sigma, I have issues.

        And as much as I think I know about TRP and the SMP and such, I really don’t think I like the truth of it.

        I will not fornicate and sleep around that last remaining years of my life. That would be easy to do without having to “game” anyone.

        In fact it’s so easy that I feel like this is some sort of test. And with all the opportunities that have been presented to me, the ones I took were the worst ones. So…the problem is me.

        I have trouble discerning the sincere from the sinister amongst the women I’ve met. I think that’s because I watch them. I watch them ALL. I watch my aunties, my cousins, the wives of my married friends, my female coworkers, my female “acquaintances. I watch what they do and how they behave more-so than what they say. And things don’t add up too much of the time.

        So in the “…Realist….Pessimist” post, one of the posters wrote that he was a cynical optimist. I think I can relate to that. Maybe.

        Like

      • Sunshine,
        What Vox is advocating is for men to lower their standards in order to gain experience. I am still shaking my head from hearing that the average twentysomething woman is 5’3″ and wieghs 160 lbs..Men haven’t let themselves go that far. I am finding it hard to believe that he is telling us to accept the”new normal”.
        I have tried dting for its own sake. Not a path to success for me. I did find out that there is huge chasm in motivation between the sexes. It’s very easy for a woman to find a motivated man while it is very hard for a man to do as much. Perhaps this could explain why so may men writing in this corner of the internet are single while Lindy West found someone to marry.
        My scalp is getting sre from all this head scratching.

        Liked by 1 person

  15. While I agree that people generally attract others who are similar to themselves, I don’t agree that women/men who attract losers are necessarily garbage.

    I know several 20-somethings who are nice looking with good personalities and decent jobs who want desperately to find a spouse and have had no success. A few have ended up dating people who drink too much, or like to play the field, or have other issues out of desperation. It usually doesn’t end up very well.

    Perhaps it’s a downside of living in a rural community where your choices are very limited unless you want to delve into the murky world of online dating. FARMERS ONLY anyone?

    Like

    • Sure, of course. I didn’t mean that people who are attracting losers are garbage (and again, I want to emphasize that I’m only using “garbage” metaphorically; people are aren’t garbage, not even sluts and cads). My point was that the author of that article is picking up women who are willing to be picked up and treated like crap and then complaining that all women are crap. This would be like a foreigner ONLY choosing to eat at MacDonalds and then going back to his country to complain about how terrible American food is…to which I would say, “Nowadays MacDonalds is easy to find, plentiful, and cheap, but it’s not the entire sum of American cuisine. With some effort, you can usually locate something nicer. But then, no bitching if they won’t let you in now that you have MacDonald’s grease stains all over yourself.”

      Like

  16. I read the post and comments with interest. Same song, different verses.

    Read this from donalgraeme again, because this is the crux of it:

    “I don’t think you understand what it is like for us Sunshine. Not everything makes it to a post. Plenty of my communications with Christian men stay personal, mostly via e-mail but sometimes other sources. These are not garbage collectors. They are single Christian men like me trying to find a unicorn. Or they are married Christian men who are trying to keep what they have, or concerned about their kids, or just plain appalled by how bad things are now.

    “I suppose they could be lying, but I don’t think so. Too much of what they relate is similar to my own experiences, including that which I don’t talk about.”

    It’s exasperating to hear from you and women things like this from LeeLeeBug:

    and

    “I’ve spent a lot of time around some very young women over the past year. Not one of them – out of maybe a hundred that I’ve casually spent time around and 30-40 that I know pretty well – fits the characterization in that article. Literally zero of them. No single mothers, no faux I-can-beat-up-men attitude, none of it.”

    when you know very well what the problems are.

    Here, let me sum it up for you:

    Men: “Women aren’t attracted to a man like me who loves God and is serious about his faith.

    Sunshine and her female commenters: “What are you talking about? I know lots of women who aren’t anything like that! Not all women are like that! The women I know aren’t like that!”

    Men: “I’ve tried to meet those women. They turn up their noses at me, aren’t attracted to me. They want the players and douches who will sleep with them.”

    S and HFC: Then you are just looking at the garbage dump; and you’re just a fly.
    ______________

    I suggest you look at LLB’s comment again, where she said:

    “I know several 20-somethings who are nice looking with good personalities and decent jobs who want desperately to find a spouse and have had no success. A few have ended up dating people who drink too much, or like to play the field, or have other issues out of desperation. It usually doesn’t end up very well.”

    did you get that last part?

    “A few have ended up dating people who drink too much, or like to play the field, or have other issues out of desperation. It usually doesn’t end up very well.”

    She’s describing women who are dating hawt, attractive douches. Because that’s what those women want. They would rather date attractive, good looking men who are bad for them than less attractive, devout men who would stick around.

    I’ve had this discussion with you So. Many. Times. And you’re still not understanding it.

    Like

  17. I’ve had this discussion with you So. Many. Times.

    Well, apparently we’re going to have it again then.

    “And you’re still not understanding it agreeing with everything I say.” FIFY.

    Men: “Women aren’t attracted to a man like me who loves God and is serious about his faith.

    lulz, that’s right Deti, those guys at RoK are men who love God and are serious about their faith and that is why they are informing decent men like Donal Graeme that ALL American women are slutty single mothers who are only to be used for casual sex and discarded.

    Like

    • You missed this part, where you talk about “all these” women who are all sweetness and light:

      Men: “I’ve tried to meet those women. They turn up their noses at me, aren’t attracted to me. They want the players and douches who will sleep with them.”
      __________________

      And where are all these attractive, Godly, sweet, kind women who just want to marry and be wives and mothers? I’ll resist offering my usual conclusions and ask it – where are they? Because I looked, and looked, and looked, and didn’t find them. I still look so I can try and understand where you’re coming from; and I still don’t see them.

      Like

      • …you talk about “all these” women who are all sweetness and light … And where are all these attractive, Godly, sweet, kind women who just want to marry and be wives and mothers?

        You did not accurately quote me at all. Here is what I actually said:

        I’ve spent a lot of time around some very young women over the past year. Not one of them – out of maybe a hundred that I’ve casually spent time around and 30-40 that I know pretty well – fits the characterization in that article. Literally zero of them. No single mothers, no faux I-can-beat-up-men attitude, none of it. They have some annoying female characteristics that rear their head from time to time – cattiness, gossip on occasion, mean-girlyness. That sort of thing. Occasionally I hear some very unrealistic romantic dreams. But for the most part, they are serious, hard-working young women.

        My sources for the women that I described were:

        – a large group of high school volleyball girls ages 14-18
        – the women on the University of Michigan volleyball team and the Eastern Michigan University volleyball team
        – the girls in the high school where I work
        – a handful of young teachers

        Zero single mothers. Zero I-can-beat-up-men attitude. No purple hair. Very few tattoos. No obesity but a few girls who are slightly overweight. They don’t appear to be slutting around; they come to volleyball practice and while they’re waiting their turn to get their butts kicked by the athletic trainers, they’re draped over chairs with their AP Chem books out, studying. They like boys and don’t cop strong-n-independent attitude with them that I’ve seen. Sometimes they are competitive with the boys academically but I have never – not once – seen a high school or college female athlete running her mouth about being as tough as the guys. Rhonda Rousey is not “most women” any more than the professional whores who are tweeting #GiveYourMoneyToWomen represent average woman.

        You find the worst of the worst, the loudest or sluttiest of all female-kind, and then proceed to act like this represents most women. Well, they might be better at getting men’s attention than normal girls and women are, but that really says more about you guys than it does about women. Why are you all such a bunch of garbage-eaters, huh? Why would so many men rather marry a hot slut than a plain good-girl? And don’t tell me those girls don’t exist because I KNOW THEM. I could name names of slim Christian virgins who would make great wives but because they aren’t quite hot enough, average Christian men are rejecting them. I have seen it happen both in real life and on my old blogs.

        I’ve had enough of this bullshit.

        Liked by 1 person

      • There are plenty of men who would love to find “that plain girl” and would avoid the “hot slut” in a heartbeat if they could JUST FIND ONE.

        Like

      • This is a total and complete lie. I used to believe it because men in the manosphere said it. Then I watched with my own eyes as they turned around and rejected those plain virgins. That is when I realized they are lying.

        They want a woman who looks a certain way and they’ll stay single if they don’t find her. That’s fine, that is their prerogative, but that does not say something bad about “all” American women’s morals. Did you even read the article I linked to? He says ALL American women are slutty single mothers who are only good for being sexually used and discarded. Do you agree with that? A simple yes or no will suffice, and I’ll expect an answer from you about that.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Who rejected those “plain virgins”? And do you think that the rejections might have had something to do with matters other than physical appearance? I suspect they might.

        My opinion on the RoK piece is irrelevant. And no, I don’t agree that every single solitary woman is good only for sex and later discarding. But that’s beside the point. The point is that most of the women you’re describing as nonslutty still don’t want ordinary Christian men. We know that. It’s been discussed and described ad nauseam, ad infinitum here, there and everywhere. The point is that the women you’re talking about still want the top, best, most attractive men they can get; and that’s not Christian men. The men are getting rejected, not the women. The women you’re speaking of will all be married off and pregnant by 35.

        Like

      • ANd I’ll expect an answer from you about what it is you’d expect Christian men to do when the nonslutty Christian women you’re extolling here will reject those good Christian men out of hand because they’re “ewwww, unattractive, boring, not hawt”. You and I both know that’s how it goes down. What do you propose those good Christian men do when even the nonsluts reject them?

        Like

    • And you’re deliberately misrepresenting what I said. Of course I didn’t say men who write at RoK are men of faith. You and I both know that’s not what I said. I’m talking about donal and Pedat, and you know it.

      Like

      • I specifically told Donal that this wasn’t about him, that he’s not a garbage collector and thus he shouldn’t listen to the garbage collectors as the sole source of authority about what the world is really like.

        Like

      • He isn’t listening solely to garbage collectors. But neither have you provided a full picture of what the world is like; and neither have most pastors or those who minister to men and women about marriage and family.

        And I’m genuinely interested: Where are these women you all keep talking about? As I’ve said, I’ve searched high and low. Where?

        Like

      • And let me just put donalgraeme’s comment here again, for your consideration:

        “I don’t think you understand what it is like for us Sunshine. Not everything makes it to a post. Plenty of my communications with Christian men stay personal, mostly via e-mail but sometimes other sources. These are not garbage collectors. They are single Christian men like me trying to find a unicorn. Or they are married Christian men who are trying to keep what they have, or concerned about their kids, or just plain appalled by how bad things are now.

        “I suppose they could be lying, but I don’t think so. Too much of what they relate is similar to my own experiences, including that which I don’t talk about.”

        This is what no one seems to have any answers for. And the constant bleats of “not all women are like that” and “the women I know aren’t like that” and “you just need to get out more” aren’t a solution for Christian men.

        Like

  18. As I’ve said, I’ve searched high and low.

    FIFY

    Quit looking at shiny wrappers in the trash. The whole world is not a dump, ya’ll have just gotten mesmerized by sparkly garbage.

    Like

    • NOpe, you haven’t “fixed it”, and yes, I’ve searched high and low, not just “Low”. I think you’re aware of that. Left, right, up down, here there and everywhere, just like most Christian men. You know that.

      Like

    • Sunshine,

      Last night I cried when a woman I love dearly told me that for the past 18 months she’s been involved with a married man.

      We’ve been friends 15 years now, and have lived through each other’s travails and times of running into that glass wall of sameness…(disappointment, despair, discouragement) and while we have both been steadfast in our allegiance to the Cross, covered by the blood, and trying to act like we have some sense…

      …she blindsided me with “..and so i love this man…”.

      Knowing how I feel about women who allow themselves to be soiled by the hands of married men, and injecting their wicked semen into their bodies, and the contempt I have for cheating (and cheaters as a whole).

      Knowing how I truly understood the scope of the dysfunction and lack of sanctification in her previous how there was no light in her eyes and joy in her attitude, yet I refused to touch her, given the principle of it all, for while my love for her was deep, and my flesh burned to touch her, for Christ’s sake, my sake, and to protect her spirit and reputation, I took my place as friend and brother in Messiah…yet…

      …knowing how, going against my best instincts, I had considered praying to the Father about where I needed to be in loving some women in different ways, and could there be a way…could He change something in me that would ease the mistrust and lack of confidence I have in certain types of women (single mothers, who may have frivorced their husbands)? Could there be something in me that is not Christ-like that could be holding this thing over their heads, judging them, even when I have seen some fruits of repentance in their lives? Could He work something out here as only He could, for is He not Merciful, and are His ways not beyond any of us….?

      …and then the other shoe drops, and then now here we go with this shit!

      “A married man, really? A so-called minister at that? Really? All the years I spent loving you properly, trying to protect your reputation, not wanting anything that I did to separate you from the Love of God in Christ, or to allow the devil to accuse you before the brethren, and then you’re fucking around with a married man?”

      Pedat. Done. Spent.

      Like

      • As I was saying:

        What do good Christian men do when even the nonsluts reject them?

        What do good Christian men do when even their sisters in Christ choose sexual sin with men who aren’t available for commitment?

        Like

      • It seems that when some men aren’t looking in the trash; the trash is still everywhere and attempting to pass itself off as treasure.

        So not looking in the trash doesn’t seem to be an answer either.

        Liked by 1 person

      • That’s a sad situation, Pedat, and you have my prayers. You have every reason to feel righteous anger at your friend’s conduct. We do live in evil days, and of course men and women have always been drawn to sexual sin in particular. My one comment would probably be not to get to be too close of friends with women; it’s probably best for men to befriend men and women to befriend women and married couples to associate with other married couples.

        Now, as I recall, you are around 50-ish years old, correct? I don’t know what the population of single women in their 40s is like, but I would assume that a lot of the “marriageable” women are already married by that time, so what you are looking at are the ones who couldn’t or didn’t get/stay married. Probably not all of them are bad, but I would say overall you are looking at women who are less inclined to be and stay married. That may account for some of what you are experiencing.

        Young women sometimes get together with older men, so you could try looking among younger women if you are still considering marriage, but despite what we may read in the manosphere, May-December marriages aren’t terribly common. Most people marry someone close to their own age (not that there is anything wrong with a woman marrying an older man).

        Like

  19. Call me a pussy if you want. I was up all night talking to this woman. I came into work on 2.5 hours of sleep.

    I cried this morning in the shower.

    I cried this morning as I was driving in to work.

    Not because I wanted anything FROM my friend, but what I wanted FOR my friend.

    And because, as arrogant as it sounds, other than that other shit in her life, she was only one of maybe a handful of women I’ve met in my 50 years that I’d consider my intellectual, emotional, and (gasp) spiritual equal. Other than that other shit in her life, she was one who probably could hang with me.

    So now, she’s my friend. And I love her. And while I haven’t arrived…there are things I loathe, and while loving her with the love of Christ is NOW really going to be a test for me, because I need to see her through the blood, as He does us, instead of seeing red at the thought of her allowing this filthy motherfucker to put his hands on her, and trying to resist cussing her out – again.

    But she’s my friend, and she’s my sister in Christ, and this really hurts.

    Sorry for the foul words on your blog Sunshine. I respect you and how you roll. I hope you understand.

    Like

  20. I just want to point out one last thing.

    Sunshine is talking here in part about college level, Division I NCAA intercollegiate athletes.

    These are women who are going to be accustomed to socializing with, being approached by, dated by, and propositioned for sex by, MALE Division I NCAA intercollegiate athletes.

    And it is being obliquely suggested that these women will be attracted to Christian men. Or at least that they are not sexually active, or sexually promiscuous.

    Well.

    These women are going to experience hypergamy on radioactive steroids. They are elite college athletes who hang around male elite college athletes. They are in the best physical conditioning of their lives and they hang out with men who are in the best physical conditioning of their lives.

    Are we to believe that these women are going to marry Christian men at 22? Are we to believe that these women will consider Christian men to be even in the same galaxy?

    Like

    • And it is being obliquely suggested that these women will be attracted to Christian men. Or at least that they are not sexually active, or sexually promiscuous.

      I'm not "obliquely" suggesting anything. I responded to an article that said ALL ("all" means "every single one without exception") are worthless sluts who are only good for using for sexual pleasure and then discarding. The article said that most women are single mothers and that ALL American women are horrible mothers, that nearly all American women try to act like they are as tough as men, and a whole litany of other nasty attributes that may be true of the women the author associates with but are NOT true of "all" American women.

      I used the women from the volleyball teams as an example of women who are not tattooed, purple-haired single mothers who think they are as tough as men. I used those women as an example because one of my daughters recently attended a week of volleyball camp at U of M and a week of volleyball camp at EMU and the players helped to coach the camps, so I had the chance to meet them and observe them. These women probably are stronger than some men, but even while observing them around male athletes, they never copped that attitude. They were pleasant and fun. I don’t know anything about their personal lives, but I assume they probably will date other athletes. The head U of M volleyball coach, Mark Rosen, is a friendly and kind man married to the Associate Head Coach, Leisa Rosen, who is a pretty, fit, and sweet woman. So what?

      The point was the author attributed to ALL women that which is only true of the women whom he himself is able to attract. Other men then assume that this guy knows what “all” women are like because he’s “had” so many women, and they assume that all women are as gross as the women this guy picks up. This is demonstrably false. You have attributed to me all kinds of implied arguments that I never made without responding to what I actually wrote.

      Like

      • And what’s your opinion on Pedat’s experience with his woman friend involved in an affair with another Christian man?

        It would seem that looking other than in the trash doesn’t guarantee you won’t find trash. It seems that trash is everywhere.

        It would also seem that outside the trash, there is plenty of trash passing itself off as treasure.

        What do you think about these problems which men and women face?

        And what do you propose that Christian men looking for wives do about this?

        Like

    • I’d still like to know what you think about this:

      “**what it is you’d expect Christian men to do when the nonslutty Christian women you’re extolling here will reject those good Christian men out of hand because they’re “ewwww, unattractive, boring, not hawt”. You and I both know that’s how it goes down. What do you propose those good Christian men do when even the nonsluts reject them?”

      Like

      • They should do the same thing that the nice, plain, Christian virgins do when average Christian men reject them for not being hot enough.

        Like

      • and why should Christian men do “the same thing” as Christian women do when the sexual goals and concerns of Christian men don’t coincide with the sexual goals and concerns of Christian women? Men want pretty, feminine women; women want confident, dominant, hawt men. Christian men want pretty, feminine Christian women; Christian women want confident, dominant, hawt Christian men. The fact that they’re Christian simply overlays Christian morals on their fleshly, Eros desires.

        Like

      • My blogging time for the day is just about over, as I am a Band Mom and have to deliver a large quantity of baked goods and veggie platters to the high school shortly for the kids at Band Camp to have at their lock-in tonight.

        Side bar: last year the boys sneaked into the girls sleeping quarters in the auditorium at 3:00 a.m. and put the metronome on its fastest speed and highest pitch up against a microphone. The girls were scrambling around in the dark trying to figure out what was going on. I thought that was pretty darn funny, but I was also slightly horrified to learn that the boys made it past the chaperones into the girls’ sleeping quarters in the first place.

        OK, anyway. The last thing I have time to say at the moment is in response to this

        and why should Christian men do “the same thing” as Christian women do when the sexual goals and concerns of Christian men don’t coincide with the sexual goals and concerns of Christian women?

        Says who? Who says their goals and concerns don’t coincide? Men and women who are Christians both have two goals (unless they plan to remain single and chaste): licit sexual outlet and family formation.

        My final advice is for everyone:
        Spend less time listening to internet wannabe cult leaders and more time reading your Bibles.

        Like

  21. I must have missed the part when it became Sunshine’s responsibility to find every man in the universe a wife. I, too, live in a small town and know many very pretty, kind girls, so what she says about her town does not surprise me.

    Everyone is responsible for themselves. When a person flat out refuses to take advice from others, even if they say they want help, they don’t actually want help. What they want is some respite, a little confirmation that, yes, it is hard to find someone. So, let me say it for you. Yes. It is hard to find someone. There is such a thing as trying too hard and forcing a solution instead of having patience and allowing things to happen.

    Bit it is true that men overlook nice, plain girls, just as it is true that girls overlook nice, plain men. It is far, far easier to spruce up a nice, plain girl than it is to purify a trampy hot girl. The girl you marry could be within two pews of you and you don’t even know it.

    Like

    • Come on, Kate. You know the point of my comments wasn’t to demand that anyone find wives for men. It was first to point out the pointlessness of demanding all men admit that women are not “Good only for One Thing”. OF COURSE women are not only sex receptacles. Everyone knows that. It was second, to point out that it’s tough all over, for men and women.

      And, men are not to blame for not wanting to marry women they aren’t sexually attracted to. Men are not to blame for not wanting to pledge their lives and fortunes to women who lack they qualities they want, particularly in today’s legal, social and sexual environments. A man is not shallow or superficial or blameworthy for any of that.

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      • You know, I went back to an old haunt of mine recently where I often pitch in by rewriting people’s online profiles. The person supplies the link to their profile, I assess it, and give feedback based on what I think of it as a woman, as a student of game (using the guidelines of Magic Bullets), and for grammatical readability.

        So, I go to this guy’s link and the first thing that hits me is the photo. And I think to myself, whatever I say about his profile may not help because he is not conventionally attractive at all. Yet, I spruced it up a bit and he was grateful for the help.

        Now, is some girl going to overlook the fact that he is a nice, decent person? Probably. And maybe he, too, if he reads too much masculinist literature will begin to have an inflated opinion of his own attractiveness to others.

        The elephant in the room is we don’t know what most of our virtual friends look like. Nobody is going to want to point out that it may be their looks that are the problem. Game is supposed to be independent of looks, but a three is not going to end up with a nine. If you (the universal you) are a six, accept that you are a six and the limitations of being a six and be satisfied. Or do something to raise your physical attractiveness bearing in mind that ratings on the looks scale does not equate to happiness.

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      • I don’t know any male 3s who expect to end up with supermodels.

        I DO know lots of female 4s who expect to end up with Brad Pitt lookalikes because they once, a year ago, slept with a hot bodybuilder in a one night stand.

        Like

      • That’s irrelevant, because attraction works differently with men vis a vis women. But, most male 3s I know accept that 3s are the best they can get; or they opt out.

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      • Good. Then you’re doing what I call “active waiting.” You want something, but you’re not putting your life on hold till you get it. You’re continuing to live your life, and, when the thing that you’re “waiting” for happens, which it likely will at some point, you’ll take it in stride.

        I’ve been resisting giving a personal example, but I’m just going to share it anyway. Many people know I met my husband on the Manosphere blogs. But, what they don’t know is that when he first started commenting, I didn’t know anything about him because…I was involved with someone else and was barely reading or participating in the sphere. From time to time, I’ll fall down a worm hole and read some post we both commented on and be astonished to see how we were both right there and I had no idea of his existence. That is what I mean about how funny things can turn out. You just never know who or how or when.

        I had given up, Pedat. I’d had that man I was involved with fly across the entire country to meet me, and then no further relationship resulted. I tried dating again and eventually gave up after it turned out the only person I liked had lied to me about his age. I was tired of being led (and letting myself be led) down the garden path again and again.

        I’d returned to the Manosphere again, and there was this guy who posted all these funny jokes on a site I read. We exchanged a comment here and there on some blogs. One day I messaged him through Facebook. Four months later we were engaged.

        Nobody wants to peddle false hope. But, you just don’t know how things will work out for you. You have to both give up and not give up at the same time, if you understand what I mean.

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  22. LOL @ Kate.

    If only looks were my problem. I’d take a lack of attractiveness over Dunning-Krugers, virulent liars, libertines, hoodrats, chicken-heads, bourgeois, phonies, serial cheaters, sirens, dandies, bigots, dullards and commoners.

    “Well I figured you were out of my league, and so might as well see how long we could go before you lost patience with me…never thought you’d give me a chance anyhow…”. (sigh)

    Like

    • There’s nothing Kate can do to help you, Pedat. There’s no advice a woman can give you with regard to how you should address the SMP.

      Like

      • I said that there’s nothing you can do to help Pedat because you approach the subject of intersexual relationships from an angle entirely different from men. The issues aren’t the same, the concerns are diametrically opposed, the goals at cross purposes to those of women.

        Like

  23. Pedat,
    You need to rid yourself of this woman who has her claws in your heart while she is crying over this inappropiate guy. All this time, she could have had you.

    Like

    • Thanks FWB.

      Sunshine is right. I try to love my sisters in Christ, and they end up being huge disappointments. The single ones, the married ones, the cousins, the aunties.

      My 22 year old daughter came out a few years ago. I was numb.

      Her mother is from a long line of holiness, hard-core tradcons who just were verklempt at the whole thing. She loves our daughter, but still struggles with it. Even once or twice she declared that it was my job to ‘save’ our daughter.

      As years have waned, my take is that, at 22, I keep her in my prayers, talk to her about matters of this life as a whole, and ask Him to keep her in His grip.

      I’d rather my daughter be bi-curious at this age, and potentially grow out of it, than to be an immodest, whoremongering, lying, cheating slut who doesn’t have the ability to attract and secure the trust and confidence of a truly devout and godly man in Christ.

      She knows where I stand as her Dad on a whole lot of things. What she does with it is going to be up to her.

      She gets outraged over the things I’ve endured with these phony Christian women over the years. “Daddy, do you want me and my friends to beat her up?”

      “No. Just pay attention to the things I’ve told you that your Daddy can’t stand in women – and avoid doing those things, and you’ll be fine.” LOL.

      Like

  24. With Deti joining the thread, it did blow up. The point that I think that everyone is missing is that what people percive has a bearing on reality. What’s killing American women is they have an abundance mentality and an inflated sense of their SMV thanks to too much attention from thirsty guys. I think that the market will have to crash before we see a correction.
    As for guys, we are very frustrated.

    Like

  25. Thank you Sunshine…

    By all accounts, when you’re my age, and your SMV is exponentially higher than that of women your own age, but then you’re values and ideals may seem to be a big stringent for women who are younger, you are somewhat in an awkward place…

    …unless you decide to engage in hedonist carnality.

    i could do that, no problem, and without having to run much game, if any. But that’s not how I roll.

    Nothing thrills me about the darkness and emptiness of meaningless sex and mind games.

    I’m screwed.

    Liked by 1 person

      • Bodycrimes:

        “how can I find a woman that I won’t despise?”

        Who asked THAT question? Not me.

        My desire would have been to meet one that I consider my equal in EVERY aspect, in whom I can have the utmost confidence, and love without question.

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      • No offence, but if you are referring to the women you meet as “bourgeois, phonies, serial cheaters, sirens, dandies, bigots, dullards and commoners”, it suggests you’re not very open to meeting people.

        Who is not borgeois, common or dull, in your opinion?

        Like

      • Bodycrimes,
        One of the consequences of trying to navigate the SMP in Pedat’s age group is not that the men are picky but, the other way around. Given the deomgraphics, you would think otherwise but all markets are irrational.

        Like

    • My stepdad has ended up in your position twice, actually. He was divorced about age 50, and thanks to people at church, he started dating my mother (also divorced) and had eighteen years of wonderful marriage with her. Then, when my mother died, he met, courted, and married the lady I call my “two step mom”.

      On the flip side, my dad, since his divorce, has dated (and I believe bedded) a series of women–about one every 3-5 years. Some of them have been, IMO, pretty classy ladies who deserved better.

      The difference, IMO, is the man’s attitude. My stepdad could have made a wife out of most of my dad’s girlfriends, really. Both are about the same in looks, athleticism, and money, my stepdad having slightly more status as a civilly involved retired dentist. (my dad was in sales)

      But my stepdad courted my mom and my two-step mom in church and such. My dad, not so much. The results speak volumes.

      Like

      • Objectively speaking, I think they both made out well…didn’t seen to struggle much for female companionship in spite of their differences in how they regarded the women.

        Were the women in their lives on part with them in the SMV?

        Like

      • Keep in mind that, as a man seeking a wife and not just a lover, you’re wanting to emulate my stepdad more than my dad!

        And that said, in general the ladies my step-father has married post-divorce outclass the ladies my father has dated–physically to a degree, but definitely in terms of wisdom and intellect. Maybe that’s why my step-dad chose them.

        Hope you can trust me on this last bit. I don’t think I ought to share more per Exodus 20:12.

        Like

  26. “Who is not borgeois, common or dull, in your opinion?”

    SOME people, women included, ARE, so GTFOH with that. If you find those qualities desirable, then that’s your business.

    I never said ALL of them were, but it seems that some who have felt entitled to my time and attention have fallen into those categories, and as such, they got nexted.

    Like

    • I’m going to anticipate Bodycrimes on this one too. It’s not just me saying this. I am hearing it from forty yo men who are successsful with women. They’re having better luck with the twentysomethings while the fortysomethings are treating them badly.
      Go figure.

      Like

      • If you’re looking for an ego boost, arm candy, or NSA sex, then I guess kicking it with someone half his age works until you start taking about matters of this life and beyond, then it doesn’t work. At least not for me.

        And watching a middle aged woman cock-block her young daughter in the church lobby, in the parking lot, outside the classroom, or at Whole Foods isn’t pretty. And even then, where’s the Father? If some 50 yo man tries to woo my daughter he’s going to need backup, and have 911 on speed dial.

        Trying to meet people your own age who is holistically looking to self-actualize is hard enough…babysitting is hardly on the to-do list, either.

        Again, having an SMV that is exponentially higher than people of your same age group in your area sucks. And I’m not talking just about looks, I’m talking mostly about intellect and CHARACTER most importantly.

        So, I’m screwed.

        Like

      • Not always. My mom was 43 when she started dating my 50 year old stepdad. Two step mom is 65. If you asked him, he’d tell you that the life experience gap going back 20-30 years is just too much.

        Liked by 1 person

  27. Normally, I wouldn’t consider linking Return of Kings but, it is the subject of this post. Those who would wish Roosh ill may see it come true this Saturday. Unless this is one very much ove the top publicity stunt, he could end up in a Montreal jail. Why? Because Canadian feminists are over the top and don’t want him giving a talk on “Neomasculinity”.
    http://www.returnofkings.com/68744/canadian-aurelie-nix-falsely-accuses-roosh-of-a-rape-threat-with-help-from-journalist-emily-campbell

    Like

    • I don’t wish him ill. I wish him enlightenment. What is happening to Roosh is no different than what he has done to countless others. I actually considered going to Toronto for a couple of reasons: to lend support to his new push for old values, and to make him meet us and look us in the eyes.

      Like

      • Who would have predicted all of this to be coming at RV the way it is.

        Was this self-fulfilling?

        Our words, more than our intent, are forever journalized, for in the ‘sphere, we have no ‘inside jokes’.

        Like

      • Kate,
        I had forgotten about his post or video condemning Mark in the wake of your marriage.That was uncalled for.

        Like

      • Thank you, Fuzzie. Google doesn’t forget, and Roosh knows that. You can see on his twitter that the latest articles he’s written are intended to ruin the employment opportunities of those who made false claims about him.

        Like

  28. It may be a good idea to give Roosh a wide berth. The sense that I am getting from reading recent posts is that he is trying to provoke Canadian feminists.

    Like

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